Thursday, December 13, 2007

We play some interesting dealer’s choice games, but the one that’s getting the most action lately is five-card stud low. It’s a high action game because it’s so often to correct by pot odds to call when you’re behind. This can produce some dramatic results in a table stakes game. As plain as the game sounds, and as closely related to regular razz as it is, you’d not expect it to be quite so volatile. What makes it volatile is that it’s almost impossible to feel comfortable going into the river with an opponent who isn’t holding a pair. The reason for this should be obvious. Holding four cards it’s quite easy to make a pair yourself while your opponent does not. Of course played with more than two players it’s foolish to make big calls unless you really do have a premium hand, but head’s up you’re never more than 81.5% loser when you haven’t paired. That’s the equivalent of about eight outs in Holdem. Sure the pot has to offer you pretty good odds to call with worse than a four to one shot, but that’s the worst possible case scenario. By the way, the scenario in question, and it’s at least the worst I can think of, is A23K vs. A234. Of course the individual ranks don’t matter as much as how they relate to each other. Matched perfectly for three ranks, and then the king. In this scenario your opponent must draw an Ace, Deuce, Trey, or Four to pair while you must not catch a larger pair than he catches. Perhaps there are worse scenarios, but taking the general concept of having different cards to an extreme, I did the math for four overs (A234 vs. TJQK) and actually came out a little better, at over 19.6%. Of course we’re talking about hands that do not hold a pair. It’s possible to be much farther behind, but probably not with any kind of brain. Obviously AAAA is a 100% lock vs. 2222. The only way you’re taking worse than 18% is if you’re bluffing, and then you’re laying odds, not taking them. Of course, most bluffing is done early with a high card in the hole or after the last draw, so this article doesn’t really address that part of it.

Discovering the odds of a particular play with two cards to remain is much more difficult, at least for me since the only way I know to calculate odds is to find all possible outcomes and add the good ones together. But I can find the odds for being ahead after the fourth card is dealt. In a recent hand against a friend of mine in which he found my call to be foolish, I was about thirty percent to be ahead after the fourth card was dealt. Depending on how far ahead I was at that point, I was about seventy-five percent to stay ahead after the last card, about fifteen percent (allowing that I could have paired) to get ahead if I was still behind. So with approximations we can see that I was the victor about (30% X 75%) + (70% X 15%) of the time, which comes out to about 33%. Of course that leaves a large margin of error, since I don’t have the patience to figure it out exactly. At the time in question there was a pot of about $15 into which my opponent bet his last $22. The pot was seven dollars short of offering me the odds to call. Since he was all-in there were no implied odds, so mathematically it was an incorrect call.

So why did I call? Was it just a foolish mistake? There were a couple intangibles that I valued that caused me to call. Before I am shouted down and certain folks say I made this up after the fact, I want to say that these factors were the main things I was thinking about before I made the call, and I had no idea that the pot odds were even as close as they were. First of all, I was up, and not just up, but had been pushing my opponents mercilessly since the beginning of the game. I could tell that this particular opponent was starting to get a little uncomfortable with my constant aggression and that he was one or two bad beats away from full tilt. To put a bad beat on him that would felt him was likely to do the job. Because of my stack size the loss of the twenty-two dollars wasn’t such a big deal, but getting him into a place from which he couldn’t fight back was a big deal. I was right, got a little bit lucky, and he did go on tilt from that moment forward.

6 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't have that swolen brain syndrome that you have so I can't do the odds like you can. I depend more on "instinct odds". I don't really calculate odds as much as I just KNOW whether I am getting the right money for MY money. If you play enough hands you get a feel. So I will trust your calculations...

I agree that the call you made was an ok call. You were WAY up, you had the momentum, and yes, if he lost that hand to a bad beat he would most certainly would go on BAD tilt.

However, Remembering your attitude, mood, and facial expressions at the time, I am not 100% sure you had thought it out as thoroughly then as you have now. That was weeks ago and you couldn't even remember the cards exactly. I also know from personal experience that when I finish a big emotional hand, I usually have a small period of VERY bad memory. I forget cards, bet sizes, who bet or called, sometimes even the players involved. The rush of the moment seem to blur a lot of thought processes during the hand as well as details shortly there after. Same effect as going on tilt, just for opposite reasons. Instead of your mind dullness being caused by a bad beat, it is the result of just being "stoned" by the luck you are having. I say luck because when I play well(instead of catching great starting hands or hitting lucky river or fifth street cards in 5 card) I don't seem to suffer from the same thought degradation. I am clear and aware that I just made a good play and I know it. Not that my heart is jumping out of my chest because I just hit the one outer for a straight flush to beat the other dudes Ace high flush( which he had on flop, and which had my J high flush on the flop beat all to hell), but instead everything that happened happened because I had planned it that way. A much better feeling.

I guess my reason for explaining the above is this...

I agree with your calling his bet. Simply because of your stack, your luck that night, and the tilt factor. What I am not sure of, was that your knew all that at that moment. I felt from watching you play the hand(I had the luck of not being involved in the hand) that you knew you were on a rush, it was kinda obvious, but I just don't think you took the time to think it through. You still would have came to the same conclusion if you had but had the details been slightly different on a different hand, you may have done the same thing and really been hurtin.

I think you felt REALLY LUCKY to win that hand. I think you felt like a lucky dumbass directly after winning the pot, probably even the rest of the night. you even said to me that night, "Yeah, maybe it was a bad call, but I won!" You were on such a roll that you were overlooking many small things that night. You were catching good enough to hide it though.

After thinking on the hand i agree you made the right move. BUT, in poker, you don't get your cards and then have weeks to think about what to do. I know you said that is not what happened, but I remember that night well, and if you had deduced the same info during the hand you would not have appeared to feel like you had just lucked out on the hand. Because that's how you reacted.

You are a very good player. But unless you win consistantly you can't be great. After all, we keep score by the size of our bankrolls. If yours is in the negative or close to even then you are no better than all the people who have NEVER played a hand in their lives. All that time at the table is just wasted. You rely too much on catching good hands and getting lucky on good odds. Poker is played in the grey areas. You gotta play em or your not playin poker. We have totally different games. Learning from each other may be the best thing for us all.

That's how I would play it!

-thegreek

2:42 PM, December 13, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know. Too many numbers for me to even think about the hand itself.

But, I do agree with the greek in his last paragraph when he says that we could all probably get better by learning from each other's strengths. As an example, like thegreek, I also rely on "insntinct odds", knowing whether I'm a big favorite or underdog and gtting the right money. But I'm not going to sit there and figure out I'm a 65.56% favorite or anything like that.

I'd be very interested to hear what all of us thought were our own strengths and weaknesses, how we see ourselves vs. how others see us. I'd say at this point knowing that is not going to give any of us an advantage. Anybody have any thoughts? I would particular like to hear from Brinton, thegreek, and Daylan.

-- Aaron

3:01 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Brinton said...

Just a quick response to Aaron, since responding to thegreek will take a while.

Nobody was saying you did the wrong thing betting all in. You definitely were getting odds to bet whether or not you figured to get called. It was a great play. I was only saying I felt like a beat at that point would induce tilt. I had no way of knowing exactly what the odds were at the time, but my "instinct odds" told me that they were not so bad as to make my call ridiculous.

3:08 PM, December 13, 2007  
Blogger Brinton said...

To begin, it’s good to confirm thegreek’s identity. So now we know thegreek isn’t some mystery player.

As I implied in my response to Aaron, I also use instinct odds with games with no shared board. Knowing exactly how many outs you have and comparing them to how many outs your opponent has to still come over top of you is difficult to figure; and that’s something I learned a long time ago in seven-card stud. The fact is, at most games your hand keeps getting better, and if you forget that your opponent’s does too, then you’re in for trouble. Of course a sense of instinct odds had better be within hearing distance of the actual odds, or else they’re just hurting you. That was one thing I discovered quickly about five stud low: when playing with table stakes the odds favor gambling, even more so than in Omaha, in fact much more so than in Omaha. That’s why I trotted it out when I was up. I knew that I had a better understanding (better instincts if you will) about the game than you did. That epiphany came when I was writing about the hand which I posted on August 13th if you want to have a look. Since I was up and could afford to gamble, it was a good time to bring out the gambling game. Of course part of that was the wish to conceal why I was playing it, because it seemed like vital information that I should keep to myself. I even threw in a few ploys, and that was what you saw when you saw my attitude, facial expression, etc. Surely I’m not telling you too much to tell you that. I will tell you that I did feel really lucky to win the hand, because at the time (after I called but before I calculated the actual odds) I thought I was a much bigger dog, but I knew I would need to get lucky to win it. I showed how lucky I felt because I wanted both of you to think trying to get lucky (or stay lucky as the case might have appeared) was the reason I called, and not to demoralize Aaron.

I’m not one of those who curse luck. I hate it when I’ve been unlucky and I love it when I’ve been lucky, but on the other hand a run of good luck makes me feel pessimistic because I know there is little chance I’ll earn as much in the next hour as I earned in the last hour. A run of bad luck, recognized as such, will keep me playing because I know there’s no reason to expect the cards to continue to be so bad. I don’t make decisions based on how my luck has been unless I have reason to believe my opponents might subscribe to the “run of good luck will continue” element of the gambler’s fallacy and will be more likely to fold, or if they usually err in the other direction and they are more likely to call. Of course the main advantage of having been lucky, other than the money, is that it tends to grow a big stack, which can then be used to pressure your opponents, which is what I did. By the way, it occurs to me now that if I was really getting lucky that night it must have been the drought the two of you were having, because my cards weren’t all that great. I only discuss luck so much to get to the point that I don’t get forgetful when I get lucky. I expect to be as lucky as anyone else and as unlucky as anyone else over time. You talk about how you feel better when everything goes exactly as you wanted it to, but when you win by luck you don’t feel as good. To me it’s all the same. I figure not getting drawn out on requires some degree of luck as much as drawing out on someone. Of course you have to get luckier at a particular time to actually do it, but that’s no reason to think it won’t happen when you’re in a position to make it happen. Over time you’ll lose a 3 to 1 shot 75% of the time, and you’ll win 25% of the time, and if you know that going in there’s no reason to be ashamed of the 25% and feel nasty about it as if you weren’t playing right. If you’re in control of your game and your bankroll and stack are healthy you should call those 3 to 1 shots every time the pot justifies it, knowing that three quarters of the time you WILL NOT win. When I do feel the rush of the moment is when the stakes are high and the amount of money involved is enough to impact things away from the table. For instance I got in a game not too terribly long ago that was getting to the point where walking away a big winner was going to grant me something I hadn’t had in years, a stress-free Christmas. I got in a hand where I had to call about two hundred dollars, and somewhere in that two hundred dollars was the imaginary line that separated the different possible gifts my kids were getting for Christmas, so you better believe that when I bet that money into that pot I was feeling the rush that you’re talking about. I have no memory of what the hand was, just that I ended up winning it, only to quit a short while later when the personnel changed. I quit because I didn’t want to feel that rush again against the new people who had bankrolls that could hurt me.

As for lifetime win rates, I agree that I don’t get paid very well to play poker. Thanks to a reasonable amount of self-control the dollars won always help much more than the dollars lost hurt, and I have won a fair amount of money overall so far. You’re right about not playing enough of the gray areas. That’s what I was trying to do that particular night. I wasn’t trying to get lucky on good odds. I was trying to take advantage of a player who was showing weakness, not in the strength of his hand, but in the strength of his composure. There’s no doubt that I could stand to be more aggressive. My timidity is one hole in my game that I’m working on. It’s the reason I haven’t been playing much lately because frankly I can’t afford to be aggressive in the games to which I have access. Pushing the other players is a skill that you learned instinctively, enough to win hundreds of dollars from myself and others when were still kids. My playing style, tight self-control and waiting for the right moment, probably developed in response to your aggressive style. I have seen in the games I’ve played in lately how better bankrolled players use aggression and what appears to be too much courage to squeeze other players out, and those are skills that I’m trying to improve in myself. You were right a while back that my play of marginal hands could use improvement, and that’s what I’ve been working on.

4:41 PM, December 13, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I didn't realize we were talking about a hand I played. I remember the hand now; I don't remember thinking much either way about it. I think I said I didn't blame you for making the call at the time, for basically all the reasons you stated (outside of the math). I didn't realize one reason you chose to call was you thought it might put me on tilt -- or "demoralize" me as you say below -- but that's interesting. I just didn't think of it from that angle. I don't get tilted very often, certainly not to the degree and for the length of time that I was that night, so don't blame your for taking advantage of that.

If you make a great play and somebody maakes a bad call and beats you, there's not much you can say about. I know it's happened to all of us enough times that we ought to be used to it. You still made the great play, the other guy still made a dumb call, the wrong guy one. It happens.

I didn't realize you didn't know who thegreek was. I didn't think about it -- just assumed, figured it was obvious. Sorry if I gave something away.

-- Aaron

5:36 PM, December 13, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'll be posting my thoughts later, just wanted you guys to know I'm on board.


-Daylan

6:50 AM, December 14, 2007  

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